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	<title>Comments on: Open Standards for Sign Languages</title>
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	<link>http://blog.gingertech.net/2009/09/16/open-standards-sign-language/</link>
	<description>Silvia&#039;s blog</description>
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		<title>By: silvia</title>
		<link>http://blog.gingertech.net/2009/09/16/open-standards-sign-language/comment-page-1/#comment-4726</link>
		<dc:creator>silvia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 06:59:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gingertech.net/?p=562#comment-4726</guid>
		<description>@Skwiver It&#039;s great to hear this confirmed. I was indeed under the impression that sign writing is basically just painting what is being signed.

The introduction of character encodings for sign writing is an interesting challenge, though, and the Unicode encoding is rather challenging. I hope browsers and other applications will eventually support it and also find a good font to represent it. It would be rather interesting to see a browser with sign writing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Skwiver It&#8217;s great to hear this confirmed. I was indeed under the impression that sign writing is basically just painting what is being signed.</p>
<p>The introduction of character encodings for sign writing is an interesting challenge, though, and the Unicode encoding is rather challenging. I hope browsers and other applications will eventually support it and also find a good font to represent it. It would be rather interesting to see a browser with sign writing!</p>
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		<title>By: Skwiver</title>
		<link>http://blog.gingertech.net/2009/09/16/open-standards-sign-language/comment-page-1/#comment-4723</link>
		<dc:creator>Skwiver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 06:15:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gingertech.net/?p=562#comment-4723</guid>
		<description>Writing sign language is no longer a problem.  The elephant/squirrel examples above, from a linguistic standpoint merely say that the words have inflections. Most languages do--it&#039;s not a barrier. Using a script like Sutton&#039;s, we can write sign with no loss of information.  This has been settled. 

Comparing such a transcription to the written form of a spoken language is largely irrelevant. For one thing writing sign is far &lt;i&gt;less&lt;/i&gt; abstract.  With speech you have to change the phonological sounds to visual units, which is arbitrary and complex. With a visual language the phonological units are already visual. Sign language written with SignWriting is processed in the brain the same way as actual conversation.

There is no need to change the phonological units (signs), just transfer them to a surface, and omit extraneous details. Microsoft Paint will let you do ordinary handwritten ASL, although it&#039;ll be sloppy and ugly. 

SignWriting can &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.movementwriting.org/animation/sgn-DE/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;also be animated&lt;/a&gt;, which is even more like actual sign language. It&#039;s debatable whether that can be called writing. It&#039;s more like an avatar--a better one in my opinion, since it shows nothing except   meaningful morphemes.  

The only real problems that remain to be solved concern doing all this with computers, and it&#039;s basically the same problem presented by tone languages.  Chinese has five vowels, each with one of four tones, and possibly a diacritic mark.  So programmers have to choose: 11 symbols in three sets, or 40 symbols in one set.  We&#039;ve chosen separate symbols sets for the tones, which works but it&#039;s a nuisance. 

ASL just presents the same choice way magnified: lots and lots of symbols, in a half dozen sets. Using one set of symbols and lining them up in a row is not an option since you would need a nearly infinite number of symbols.  ASCII is out, and I&#039;m not geek enough to offer intelligent alternatives, but I have faith you guys will, or are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Writing sign language is no longer a problem.  The elephant/squirrel examples above, from a linguistic standpoint merely say that the words have inflections. Most languages do&#8211;it&#8217;s not a barrier. Using a script like Sutton&#8217;s, we can write sign with no loss of information.  This has been settled. </p>
<p>Comparing such a transcription to the written form of a spoken language is largely irrelevant. For one thing writing sign is far <i>less</i> abstract.  With speech you have to change the phonological sounds to visual units, which is arbitrary and complex. With a visual language the phonological units are already visual. Sign language written with SignWriting is processed in the brain the same way as actual conversation.</p>
<p>There is no need to change the phonological units (signs), just transfer them to a surface, and omit extraneous details. Microsoft Paint will let you do ordinary handwritten ASL, although it&#8217;ll be sloppy and ugly. </p>
<p>SignWriting can <a href="http://www.movementwriting.org/animation/sgn-DE/" rel="nofollow">also be animated</a>, which is even more like actual sign language. It&#8217;s debatable whether that can be called writing. It&#8217;s more like an avatar&#8211;a better one in my opinion, since it shows nothing except   meaningful morphemes.  </p>
<p>The only real problems that remain to be solved concern doing all this with computers, and it&#8217;s basically the same problem presented by tone languages.  Chinese has five vowels, each with one of four tones, and possibly a diacritic mark.  So programmers have to choose: 11 symbols in three sets, or 40 symbols in one set.  We&#8217;ve chosen separate symbols sets for the tones, which works but it&#8217;s a nuisance. </p>
<p>ASL just presents the same choice way magnified: lots and lots of symbols, in a half dozen sets. Using one set of symbols and lining them up in a row is not an option since you would need a nearly infinite number of symbols.  ASCII is out, and I&#8217;m not geek enough to offer intelligent alternatives, but I have faith you guys will, or are.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://blog.gingertech.net/2009/09/16/open-standards-sign-language/comment-page-1/#comment-3844</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:45:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gingertech.net/?p=562#comment-3844</guid>
		<description>I want to confirm some aspects of writing: mainly that the written form of a language cannot convey all aspects of a language.  Indeed, simply comparing the lyrics of a song to the song itself, it becomes very evident that the lyrics cannot convey the song. Writing a language - any language - requires a different way of communicating.  A narrator of a play, for instance, could say &quot;The elephant looked at the squirrel,&quot; and the actor playing the elephant could be looking at a squirrel in a tree but to write it with the same meaning, it would need to be written, &quot;The elephant looked at the squirrel in the tree.&quot;  Written forms of sign languages can similarly be more defined..  Signwriting can be used for more than just a transliteration of a signed language, it can be a creative medium for sign language authors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to confirm some aspects of writing: mainly that the written form of a language cannot convey all aspects of a language.  Indeed, simply comparing the lyrics of a song to the song itself, it becomes very evident that the lyrics cannot convey the song. Writing a language &#8211; any language &#8211; requires a different way of communicating.  A narrator of a play, for instance, could say &#8220;The elephant looked at the squirrel,&#8221; and the actor playing the elephant could be looking at a squirrel in a tree but to write it with the same meaning, it would need to be written, &#8220;The elephant looked at the squirrel in the tree.&#8221;  Written forms of sign languages can similarly be more defined..  Signwriting can be used for more than just a transliteration of a signed language, it can be a creative medium for sign language authors.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://blog.gingertech.net/2009/09/16/open-standards-sign-language/comment-page-1/#comment-2134</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gingertech.net/?p=562#comment-2134</guid>
		<description>Thank you Patric for your very clear illustration of the problem. This is the kind of explanation that has been given many times in various written articles over the years, but your comment scores high for brevity and conciseness ! This blog post by Silvia and its contributed comments should now have been picked-up by search engines, and I am sure this will benefit many readers in the future (even though less productive remarks sometimes slip-in and create noise.....just like mine ? :o) ).
Regards, Daniel</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Patric for your very clear illustration of the problem. This is the kind of explanation that has been given many times in various written articles over the years, but your comment scores high for brevity and conciseness ! This blog post by Silvia and its contributed comments should now have been picked-up by search engines, and I am sure this will benefit many readers in the future (even though less productive remarks sometimes slip-in and create noise&#8230;..just like mine ? <img src='http://blog.gingertech.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif' alt=':o' class='wp-smiley' /> ) ).<br />
Regards, Daniel</p>
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		<title>By: silvia</title>
		<link>http://blog.gingertech.net/2009/09/16/open-standards-sign-language/comment-page-1/#comment-2129</link>
		<dc:creator>silvia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gingertech.net/?p=562#comment-2129</guid>
		<description>@Patric Thank you soo much for this clarification and for providing this many detais. I have indeed probably under-estimated the complexities of trying to transcribe Sign Languages - in particular with regards to spatial locations. Have you been able to look at Sign Writing? And whether it is useful to do such transcriptions in a mostly lossless manner? As I stated in the blog post, I was just trying to learn more about sign languages when I stumbled upon Sign Writing and found it so compelling that I had to blog about it to try and find out more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Patric Thank you soo much for this clarification and for providing this many detais. I have indeed probably under-estimated the complexities of trying to transcribe Sign Languages &#8211; in particular with regards to spatial locations. Have you been able to look at Sign Writing? And whether it is useful to do such transcriptions in a mostly lossless manner? As I stated in the blog post, I was just trying to learn more about sign languages when I stumbled upon Sign Writing and found it so compelling that I had to blog about it to try and find out more.</p>
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		<title>By: Patric Larsson</title>
		<link>http://blog.gingertech.net/2009/09/16/open-standards-sign-language/comment-page-1/#comment-2093</link>
		<dc:creator>Patric Larsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:11:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gingertech.net/?p=562#comment-2093</guid>
		<description>Your conclusions are quite correct. It would be good if all written literature easily could be transferred to any Sign Language by using a computer. For those who cannot understand the written language and are part of the target group it would be a very large step towards available information and literature.

However, there are a few things that make this solution hard to carry out. Firstly, Sign Language which is a “movement language” is very different from speech/written language. Sign Language often means visualizing the shape and motion of different objects and how they co-relate. This is acted out in the Sign Language tellers imaginary “scene” e.g. placed in front of the body of the person who is signing.

For example: The sign ”big” is not signed the same way in the meaning “big elephant” as in “big squirrel”. The sign “moving fast” will also be very different depending on whether you are talking about the elephant’s or the squirrel’s movements. The text “The elephant was watching the squirrel” should be a sign downwards if the squirrel is sitting on the ground or maybe upwards if it is sitting in a tree. If the squirrel is sitting on the top of the elephant’s back the dialog will be completely different. This may seem as a trivial problem but the consequences could be devastating if the text is i.e. information about tsunamis and neither size, shape, position nor speed is correctly translated by machine.

The Sign Language uses the possibility to visually explain the position, relations and movements to gain ultimate information transfer. It is the core of Sign Language and contributes to make the Sign Language an extremely rich language. The Sign Language often exceeds the written form when it comes to transferring information, especially when it is about positions in the room and shapes. If a machine (automatic?) translation shall reach the same level as a manual translation you need to consider many variables since the computer needs to know about the consequences of the size, movement and position that occurs in the text.

The Sing Language ”signs” will, for the same reasons, be hard to transfer to a written form. The precision in the description will be less adequate than when it is carried out by a balanced and well adjusted movement. There is a risk that it will be abstract in a written form. The profit of the visualizations that exist in Sign Language would be lost.

To remove the sharpest tool from the Sign Language is not the ultimate way if the goal is understanding for the target group of Sign Language users that cannot understand written form.

Each step is a step closer to the goal regardless of the distance and I encourage investigation of the conditions in order to try and solve the existing problems. Blogs like these are a good start. It must be done with great respect for the Sign Language and with a clear delimitation of who the target group is, and what their conditions are. It should also be carried out in close co-operation with a group of Sign Language linguists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your conclusions are quite correct. It would be good if all written literature easily could be transferred to any Sign Language by using a computer. For those who cannot understand the written language and are part of the target group it would be a very large step towards available information and literature.</p>
<p>However, there are a few things that make this solution hard to carry out. Firstly, Sign Language which is a “movement language” is very different from speech/written language. Sign Language often means visualizing the shape and motion of different objects and how they co-relate. This is acted out in the Sign Language tellers imaginary “scene” e.g. placed in front of the body of the person who is signing.</p>
<p>For example: The sign ”big” is not signed the same way in the meaning “big elephant” as in “big squirrel”. The sign “moving fast” will also be very different depending on whether you are talking about the elephant’s or the squirrel’s movements. The text “The elephant was watching the squirrel” should be a sign downwards if the squirrel is sitting on the ground or maybe upwards if it is sitting in a tree. If the squirrel is sitting on the top of the elephant’s back the dialog will be completely different. This may seem as a trivial problem but the consequences could be devastating if the text is i.e. information about tsunamis and neither size, shape, position nor speed is correctly translated by machine.</p>
<p>The Sign Language uses the possibility to visually explain the position, relations and movements to gain ultimate information transfer. It is the core of Sign Language and contributes to make the Sign Language an extremely rich language. The Sign Language often exceeds the written form when it comes to transferring information, especially when it is about positions in the room and shapes. If a machine (automatic?) translation shall reach the same level as a manual translation you need to consider many variables since the computer needs to know about the consequences of the size, movement and position that occurs in the text.</p>
<p>The Sing Language ”signs” will, for the same reasons, be hard to transfer to a written form. The precision in the description will be less adequate than when it is carried out by a balanced and well adjusted movement. There is a risk that it will be abstract in a written form. The profit of the visualizations that exist in Sign Language would be lost.</p>
<p>To remove the sharpest tool from the Sign Language is not the ultimate way if the goal is understanding for the target group of Sign Language users that cannot understand written form.</p>
<p>Each step is a step closer to the goal regardless of the distance and I encourage investigation of the conditions in order to try and solve the existing problems. Blogs like these are a good start. It must be done with great respect for the Sign Language and with a clear delimitation of who the target group is, and what their conditions are. It should also be carried out in close co-operation with a group of Sign Language linguists.</p>
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		<title>By: Guillaume</title>
		<link>http://blog.gingertech.net/2009/09/16/open-standards-sign-language/comment-page-1/#comment-1565</link>
		<dc:creator>Guillaume</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:02:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gingertech.net/?p=562#comment-1565</guid>
		<description>@Joe Thank you for supporting the point I was making in my earlier post. 
It is important to remember that sign language notations such as Stokoe have been instrumental at proving to the world that sign languages had to be recognized and given the status of natural languages. This goes to show that sign language notations are essential in the study of sign languages - although not necessarily their practice. 
For information systems (computers, cell phones) to provide proper sign language support, notations are needed. They might not be shown to the user but they would be used in the background to provide functionalities such as searching on gestures and indexing. The Sign Writing Sign Puddle dictionary search feature using part-of-signs provides such a proof of concept.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Joe Thank you for supporting the point I was making in my earlier post.<br />
It is important to remember that sign language notations such as Stokoe have been instrumental at proving to the world that sign languages had to be recognized and given the status of natural languages. This goes to show that sign language notations are essential in the study of sign languages &#8211; although not necessarily their practice.<br />
For information systems (computers, cell phones) to provide proper sign language support, notations are needed. They might not be shown to the user but they would be used in the background to provide functionalities such as searching on gestures and indexing. The Sign Writing Sign Puddle dictionary search feature using part-of-signs provides such a proof of concept.</p>
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		<title>By: silvia</title>
		<link>http://blog.gingertech.net/2009/09/16/open-standards-sign-language/comment-page-1/#comment-1558</link>
		<dc:creator>silvia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 22:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gingertech.net/?p=562#comment-1558</guid>
		<description>@Joe Never before in my life have I received this much gratitude for the work I am doing (and note: SignWriting is not my work - I am just reporting on it). The gratitude of those who care is enough proof for me to continue my work. Those who don&#039;t want to make use of new technology don&#039;t have to. There is no obligation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Joe Never before in my life have I received this much gratitude for the work I am doing (and note: SignWriting is not my work &#8211; I am just reporting on it). The gratitude of those who care is enough proof for me to continue my work. Those who don&#8217;t want to make use of new technology don&#8217;t have to. There is no obligation.</p>
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		<title>By: Brenda</title>
		<link>http://blog.gingertech.net/2009/09/16/open-standards-sign-language/comment-page-1/#comment-1557</link>
		<dc:creator>Brenda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 19:47:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gingertech.net/?p=562#comment-1557</guid>
		<description>say what Joe? &quot;computer scientist&quot; and &quot;Deaf person&quot; are groups that do intersect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>say what Joe? &#8220;computer scientist&#8221; and &#8220;Deaf person&#8221; are groups that do intersect.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Clark</title>
		<link>http://blog.gingertech.net/2009/09/16/open-standards-sign-language/comment-page-1/#comment-1556</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 18:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gingertech.net/?p=562#comment-1556</guid>
		<description>Native speakers of sign language provably have no interest in writing down their utterances. You have no business telling them otherwise.

Your computer-scientist obsession with boiling everything down to characters (I note you misrepresent even Chinese in this regard) will serve you ill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Native speakers of sign language provably have no interest in writing down their utterances. You have no business telling them otherwise.</p>
<p>Your computer-scientist obsession with boiling everything down to characters (I note you misrepresent even Chinese in this regard) will serve you ill.</p>
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